Author Topic: Catalonia (Read 725 times)
barny
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« Oct 27, 2017 14:35:14 GMT via mobile »
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I'm not sure how international media are treating what's happening there, but I'm open to (trying to) explain whatever questions you may have about it. But at least you should know that today the rights of millions of people (catalans too) have been ignored if not destroyed. Shamefully, embarrassingly, near secretly. Whatever happens next I'm not sure. But it's simply frightening how a privileged collective can lose their minds that much, basing most of their demands on lies and half truths.

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« Oct 27, 2017 15:16:24 GMT »
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What are the chances of a full blown civil war Barny?

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barny
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« Oct 27, 2017 15:43:40 GMT »
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Very little. I'd say that's what Catalonian rulers desire though. But don't forget they're cowards: today voted secretly even when half of the room was absent while asking people to stand at the doors just in case the police came. Also don't forget they represent less than 50% of Catalonian voters, and even some people from those parties disagree with what they're doing these days. Not sure how the Spanish government will try to stop that, but they should know better after what happened October 1st. It's all about the image these days.

But who knows... people are completely out of their minds. They think and try to make believe they're Rosa Parks, when they are actually the people who made her Rosa Parks.

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« Oct 27, 2017 15:54:08 GMT »
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Sounds like the whole thing is basically people believeing in some fairy tale ideal.

I don't really understand it.

Catalonia is a financial power house.

The world already refers to the region as "Catalonia"

The world already refers to the people living there as "Catalans"

Its not like we're talking about an opressed people fighting for independence?

Just some random thoughts, I don't know enough about it, and I hope I havent offended you Barny.

Have a nice day.

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Belligerent Hype Man
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« Oct 27, 2017 15:59:39 GMT »
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Which team would Liam be on? Just so I know who I'm backing.

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barny
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« Oct 27, 2017 16:12:09 GMT »
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Is he a rich, upper-class "8-surname purity family" right-wing-acting nationalist?

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« Oct 27, 2017 16:17:42 GMT »
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Sounds like the whole thing is basically people believeing in some fairy tale ideal.

I don't really understand it.

Catalonia is a financial power house.

The world already refers to the region as "Catalonia"

The world already refers to the people living there as "Catalans"

Its not like we're talking about an opressed people fighting for independence?

Just some random thoughts, I don't know enough about it, and I hope I havent offended you Barny.

Have a nice day.


Nah, don't worry. I'm just a bit angry and specially sad.

So yeah, the main problem is (regional) leaders from Catalonia have taken the whole "Catalans" denomination, "We are catalans, our people think, the people want, etc.", when the truth is they just have less than 50% votes and only a bit one more than the half of the seats on the parliament.

They are not opressed AT ALL: have ruled their education, health system, public TV, etc. They're just rich bored people with a strong nationalism feeling. It used to be they wanted more money, they had campaigns with "Spain is stealing us", xenofobic comments like "People from Andalucia are just lazy fools". Now it's the next step.

It's a very long matter tbh.

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barny
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« Oct 27, 2017 16:33:42 GMT via mobile »
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It's a trick and very very illegal. One example: they'd need 2/3 votes to change a law related with the health system but accept a 50.1% for creating a new nation.

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« Oct 28, 2017 8:37:59 GMT »
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it's a hard one to sympathise with either side, given that the independence isn't a noble left wing cause for liberation but seems to have been born out of malice and greed, but as a socialist I really don't see how personally I can not support a regions right for self-determination. but the 'it's illegal' spanish arguments are moronic, of course it's illegal when Spain controls the law. that's kind of the point of the indepence movement.

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« Oct 28, 2017 9:49:27 GMT via mobile »
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First lie is picture it as a Spain vs Catalonia issue. It's million of catalans silencing, pointing at and trampling other millions of catalans. It's not only the Spanish laws they're breaking, but the regional too. They have total control of what's discussed and when, taking decisions on the last minute depending on whatever they feel right. It's a shame for every democracy believer.

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« Oct 28, 2017 9:51:28 GMT via mobile »
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Btw in Spain there is many many people who want to change the law and allow a legal and serious referendum

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« Oct 28, 2017 9:56:14 GMT »
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First lie is picture it as a Spain vs Catalonia issue. It's million of catalans silencing, pointing at and trampling other millions of catalans. It's not only the Spanish laws they're breaking, but the regional too. They have total control of what's discussed and when, taking decisions on the last minute depending on whatever they feel right. It's a shame for every democracy believer.



how's it trampling on them when there was a vote, was anyone prevented from voting to stay by the Catalan authorities? seems like a very propagandised view you have here.

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« Oct 28, 2017 10:02:12 GMT via mobile »
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Also due to the law the proportion of nationalists from (Catalonia, Vasque, Galicia and even Valencia) on the spanish parliament is way higher than if every vote counted the same. What would happen if millions of Spanish people decided to unilaterally change that?

They have their own police, famous for charging against people in the past (some of the fake videos from 1-O where actually they in past actions) and yesterday where discovered trying to burn documentation. I can only imagine what would people say if it was Spanish police who acted that way.

They have spent of public money millions in associated press, tv and campaigns. Plus embassies that nobody cares about. Although they do produce a lot of money, they aldo have the biggest debt of the country and every month receive help from the state. Some of their politicians have been earning a 3% for every public project they created. Etc.

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« Oct 28, 2017 10:05:52 GMT via mobile »
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First lie is picture it as a Spain vs Catalonia issue. It's million of catalans silencing, pointing at and trampling other millions of catalans. It's not only the Spanish laws they're breaking, but the regional too. They have total control of what's discussed and when, taking decisions on the last minute depending on whatever they feel right. It's a shame for every democracy believer.

how's it trampling on them when there was a vote, was anyone prevented from voting to stay by the Catalan authorities? seems like a very propagandised view you have here.


How could they support that voting when it's not only illegal but a proposal to make them lose their rights as catalan and spanish citizens? Would you vote on a death penalty proposal started by ukip? Do you think a decision like that it's approved by what says 2million people if the other 5 million didn't even participate?


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« Oct 28, 2017 10:13:58 GMT »
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Didn't you see the image of people voting on the street onto boxes on the floor with no control? Boxes that already had votes before the opening time! Votes with no envelop or printed at home. The many images of the same people voting on 4 different places? People from different parts of the country who voted because the online system went down and they couldn't have acces to the *census data. It was a total disaster and they just had like a 35% (numbers probably made up, because how can you believe it anyway) of support after all. The end justifies the means, no matter what?

*which was ilegally retrieved and is just another example of rights violation: that data is private and cannot be used. But they have made lists with the people who support independence and who doesn't. Teachers, doctors, bakers are marked on their lists. Even municipal mayors where extorted to open their places that day.

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« Oct 28, 2017 10:18:13 GMT »
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If you have more interest, there's a twitter account (VoicesFromSpain) with people who are translating lots of interesting articles to English and other languages. They're from politics, journalists and other people from the left to the right spectrum, so there's variety. It's biased, sure, like everything is, but far from propaganda.

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« Oct 28, 2017 10:34:10 GMT »
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Barns, don't you think Rajoy and Madrid's legalistic attitude to this is only likely to fuel support for Catalan independence? It might be the letter of the constitution but it seems counterintuitive politically.

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« Oct 28, 2017 10:43:01 GMT »
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BTW I don't pretend to have the unique truth on a very complicated situation. Just thought I should explain some facts you might not heard about.

I guess the Spanish government is making a terrible effort at communication, they always do. But Catalonia has like 7 public tv channels, huge control on their education system and 40 years of close to federal self-government. Fake news come from both and every side, but the winners of the propaganda are they. Their view on history is simply a big lie, this would be another endless ramification. I know their language, been there many times, have friends living there, this doesn't come like a surprise to me. Just the pathetic way it's been done. Also, Barcelona (or Tarragona, if you know it) is not the best example of Catalonia, as in there nationalists have less than 40% votes, talk about little towns in the north though.

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« Oct 28, 2017 11:04:09 GMT »
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Barns, don't you think Rajoy and Madrid's legalistic attitude to this is only likely to fuel support for Catalan independence? It might be the letter of the constitution but it seems counterintuitive politically.


There's probably a bit of truth in that, but I'd say is less important than people try to make believe. I mean, Rajoy usually treats every problem like it will solve itself. If it worked with corruption, he might think, for this too... But truth is nationalists took profit of a big big crisis to make harm at a moment where there were more serious problems to solve. Another problem is some people from Spanish left parties are used to blaming Rajoy for every problem, and many times they're right but they preferred talking with pro-independence people than with him, no matter what they do. This it's starting to change, because people from those parties from other regions are reacting against. But there's a weird left wing nationalism on some places that I simply don't understand.

Spanish has a weird soft nationalism, a consequence to the Franco years, so people are very careful of waving a Spanish flag because they might be targeted as fascists. So pro-independence people are using that tag to everyone who disagrees with them. Lots of Catalan people famous for defending their culture in the past (singers, actors, writers, syndicalists), some of them who even spent time in prison during the dictatorship, are now being called fascists just because they don't support what's happening. You might know Serrat, a famous Catalan singer. He is a traitor now. Banks and a thousand companies are leaving Catalonia, but it's their fault because they were so scared to speak against "the process" before it was too late.

In my opinion, Catalan pro-independence supporters love being pictured as the victims. They have been announcing the arrival of Spanish tanks for months, seriously, they believed it would happen. They might long for it, fuck. They really thought the Spanish government wouldn't allow them to go that far, and just a couple days ago started to doubt. For a day, Puigdemont was a traitor too.

So as a bit of a summary, every decision they make, they try to sell it as a reaction but that comes a little weak once you realize it's their only answer for every problem. Like I said, they're responsible for both the right and wrong decisions taken during more than 40 years of democracy.


« Last Edit: Oct 28, 2017 11:06:27 GMT by barny » Back to Top  

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« Oct 28, 2017 14:58:17 GMT »
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catalonia should get a proper independence vote.

like scotland got.



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